I’ve been thinking about this flogging thing again.
By flogging I mean blogs that are intentionally created to appear to be innocent/detached from an agenda yet push an agenda (often with key insights) for commercial purposes.
WalMarting Across Amercian was a flog. It was wrong. It wasn’t advertising – it was PR.
I also think they’re inevitable. Many people in marketing, advertising, and PR won’t care about transparency and authenticity. They’ll care about sales, and branding, and stopping that piece of legislation.
Here in DC you’ll have coalitions pop up all the time. “Citizens for This”, “Americans for That”. They’ll place ads in major newspapers ( the Washington Post, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, USAToday). But you can’t contact these groups. You’ll see a P.O. Box, an “info@AmericansForThat.org” and if there’s a phone number, you get voice mail.
They’re usually corporate sponsored and often have ties to business groups and their K Street lobbying firms.
On the advertising end, I think top people at agencies and on the client side have the same viewpoint. Do what needs to get done and don’t screw it up. Best flogging practices will come about and PRESTO! They’ll be all over the place.
I don’t think we in social media have enough power and influence to stop it. Period. I’m writing an article for ZDNet that says essentially that. When it’s published (likely this week) I’ll point to it.
But for now, what should we do?
{ 29 comments… read them below or add one }
You’re right, Jonathan, that flogs are going to be a pervasive problem–and worse than “sock puppetry.”
One thing soc. media folks could do is not let the subject die. The Internet’s got a short memory–some folks might even have forgotten the Wal-Mart flog by now. So, the pressure has to be kept on.
Another way is to out the offenders. When we find something, point out that it’s not real. That was done with the “astroturf” campaigns regarding the Net Neutrality legislation. Astroturf is more insidious than flogs, IMO, because the writers are usually very good at manipulating the style and syntax of grassroots orgs (hence the term “astroturf.”
Another thing that may help is social media becoming more “professional.” As companies see the need for well-crafted social media strategies, and see their reach and effectiveness, then they’ll move away from faux/stealth types of social media. Still there will always be folks who want to deceive.
My concern regarding the “professionalism” of social media is that it’s impossible to assert. Marketing firms are likely to establish practices from within, putting their own values on it..
And I’ve seen that younger people don’t seem to be all that upset at flogging. Hence, it’s inevitability.
None of this is new. I spent three years working for a marketing company that almost exclusively marketied by infiltrating forums, message boards, USENET, blogs, and portals with analysts who spent years developing online personae witch which they were able to promote client products and services “as organic.”
Back when I worked for them, I would often spend weeks and months developing my influence and reputation in a community or on a site, all the while never revealing that I was anything but a fan. And since most boards demand only a handle, a nom de plume, you are, really, who and what you say you are.
Nothing bad ever happened and it was very effective and a lot of fun to do. At that time, all the clients were in the world of TV, movies, video games, books, and other commercial endeavors.
In fact, when other firms were registering on message boards and dropping client message in the first post, we we remain inactive until our post count was over 100 in each of the communities. In the months before the initial messaging, we would post about general stuff: real movies we saw over the weekend, real bands we checked out, shows we watched, etc.
Mind you, since message boards and forums have never been a real name sort of place, it wasn’t hard. And since it is easy to get Yahoo, Google, and MSN email addresses, it was simple.
That said, when each analyst was able to build out a pretty influential place in the pecking order in sometimes upwards of 30 communities, then he was able to start activate and start seeding and reviving conversation about the client’s upcoming movie, TV show, video game, etc.
And, of course, since we were on these boards for upwards of 25-man-hours/week each, we were often so well-valued (always give more than you get) that we were often granted moderator privileges before long.
Since each campaign had 5 analysts and each analyst had generally 5 clients; and since some message boards proved the platform for a few campaigns, there were hundreds of man hours being lavished on online communities per-week.
I feel like there were quite a few online communities that went from being at the cusp of failure to rather popular, based on our traffic and attention, of course, but also because we were often being fed by movie studios and production companies, so all the stuff we were often posting and gifting to the community oftentimes made the initially lame community into more of a cooler “in the know” sort of space, with exclusive access to talent and assets.
We had whole databases of emails, passwords, associated logins and passwords on these boards, some background information, demographics, experience, name, and whatnot. These personas were portable and they could be rented out, even though they were generally associated with a particular analyst.
When an analyst left them company, each persona was preserved and oftentimes taken over my another analyst…
All posts were logged: hard posts and soft posts. Hard posts were for clients and soft posts were used to just ingratiate yourself into the community. All conversations needed to be followed-up on — so, we were all the perfect guests: we were generous and we were expert and we were always on and available, and we also never ever abandoned a thread: we kept spreadsheets!
Anyway, forget about inevitable: this is huge! This is a multi-multi-million-dollar a year business and it is smart, effective, and everybody is using firms like the firm I spent three years working for. When I started, I think “we” were the only one, really, that did this sort of Online Intelligence plus Operation in one shop, with the sort of professionalism and esprit de corps that my firm had — it was Langley-class intelligence work — nobody got either really made or burnt in the entire time I was there — unlike Edelman’s constant very visible mistakes — and I was amazed by what was going on.
One place this sort of stealth marketing and flogging and persona blogging doesn’t work is in public affairs. Any place where there’s fisking. That said, nobody cares in the entertainment space — people just want to be entertained and amused. In many cases, people don’t really humanize people they meet online as much as we, the Twitterati, do, so as long as someone gets awesome leaked info, behind the scenes information, have someone to help run a board, or just have fun playing, I don’t see how this sort of business model won’t continue taking off, even if this sort of stealth offering isn’t in the public menu at the door.
They might not sell Cuban cigars on the menu at this men’s club, but there are always plenty of Cubans available if the club trusts you and you know what and how to ask.
All that said, I agree with Jonathan: Flogging is wrong and flogging is inevitable.
OMG this is so funny– as in funny/strange, not funny/haha.
Chris is talking “guerilla marketing” which has going on for eons ( let’s try at least 10 years– honestly !
I know people who have done guerilla marketing and I have done some myself but with some transparency to it. I have been accused of being a shill/hack/flog of some companies when I actually haven’t been…. (there are beauty websites and board/sforums that absolutely get hysterical and the attack is vicious when they think you are a paid hack. )
The key word here is how much transparency do you want? Is a dedicated email/blog enough transparency for you?
Do you want more– with an emblazoned
” I was paid by -fill in the blank company/corporation”
Jonathan, part of the reason that the younger generation (and we aren’t that old .. but to them we are) isn’t so upset is that they don’t care who promotes what – because if the product doesn’t do what it says it will, they can go online and drum up the anti-Christ campaign about the product or company.
All the person cares about is does the product work. If it does, they tell their friends.
if it doesn’t, they tell their friends.
It’s a double-edged sword and it can cut deeply.
Flogging/advertorial posts & comments are always going to be there– it is a case of YMMV (your mileage may vary) and it does for everyone in most cases but there are situations that are broader and affect people more broadly — ie your telephone provider who suddenly cuts off your contract for no reason and then charges you to turn it back on.
I have posts where I have found issue with the way a company does business or treats their customers (ATT, Verizon are currently on my blog. Verizon is most recent)
Apple iPhone/ATT is one of my pet peeves and while I suppose they would love to have me say nice things about the cellphone/ but the phone selectively erases appointments (got to love that one) and it keeps doing it. There is no way to correct it. I have to resync my *required bluetooth* daily and sometimes multiple times daily.
Now that I have just said all that, do you think i am flogging? I just gave the brands a bunch of negative hits.
However there is the contingent that says any publicity (even bad) is good publicity. Depends on your perspective.
I am not saying not to protect those who are minors and not smart enough to realize they are being sold a bill of goods.
We all know that the skincare out there pretty much isn’t going to erase all the lines and wrinkles. That the magic pill you take or food you eat isn’t going remove 10 or more pounds without actively participating in it.
sad but true there is no FTC/FCC for the internet.. not saying there should be either because that’s just one more layer of BS bureaucracy.
However we can be 1) smarter consumers and
2) better writers and marketing people by being careful about what we do and say– because it’s our credibility that’s important here.
I am not saying Chris is entirely right….. just that I know it does happen. I have seen it happen. I have participated in those activities.. some for nothing more than to show that I could do it (meaning I didn’t get paid).
Anyone seen the movie Untraceable? That would be meaningful here.
Not only does it happen and not only is it inevitable… but it’s becoming the norm.
New companies (including mine) are more and more focused on social media presence than on an “old gaurd media presence” such as print ads, billboards, etc.
The bottom line is that social media is what drives traffic, customers, opinion, etc. – so it’s where the game happens (whether folks like it or not).
See, to me, the part that I’m against (and maybe I’ve been in DC too long) is the traditional use of these type of strategies in the political arena. Cigarettes are good for you type of stuff.
But Chris,those are amazing stories.
“Young people” don’t get upset until the issue that’s being “flogged” touches them directly. Like the rest of us
For example: many young people were upset when they realized a particular blog against net neutrality was astroturf. Many were upset when the Sony PSP “flog” was revealed as well. (that was Dec. 06–bad move on the part of Zipitoni)
So I wouldn’t generalize that it’s always ok with young people and they either don’t know the difference or are more unscrupulous or naive than some adults.
A generalization to that effect was made by the head of marketing at YouTube about “young people” not minding that commercials were inserted inside “videos” on particular YouTube “channels.: Yet when it’s done crassly–as in the “Prison Break” commercial inside the infomercial for Paris Hilton’s “album”–young people didn’t take the bait.
Still, to some degree, it is different with entertainment. Does anyone really care that @don_draper on Twitter probably isn’t the actor who’s playing him? I don’t think so.
So, the question may be: is the “flog” (or “character tweet”) there “for entertainment purposes only”? Is it trying too hard to be “people”? Or is the intent to manipulate (as in astroturf?) Are we in on the joke, or is the “joke” taking us for a ride?
agreed that entertainment is different– for the same reason we have to see all those stupid and some not so stupid previews at movie theaters over and over again.
However as a person who has a young adult in the house…. and dealt with many in that arena, they are aware that someone’s pimping out Candies by Hayden Pannatierre and they don’t mind that. However if it crosses their personal boundaries or becomes overwhelming– then they stop playing or watching or participating.
There is little loyalty in the millenial generation.
I wasn’t generalizing based on no experience– I was commenting from tons of experience of dealing with young adults (mainly girls but some boys too) because I was spent some time teaching ..
I think that young adults (read that last word carefully and cautiously) are more savvy… however like lonelygirl 115.. there was a split between it’s ok….. and not ok..
however Hayden Blacks obviously satircal Amanda’s X rated Teen Diary is so very clearly not real that they could slip dogfood commercials in there and as long as the dogs were cute and the framing of the commericial was right, most would not mind.
but there are times when I am wrong and I could be wrong here too.
My previous firm produced the anti-net neutrality blog. Funny, it all comes around in the end. I think that is when the firm realized that fisking made this strategy too too dangerous for this method of stealth and guerrilla marketing.
When I was younger, I was the classic nice guy. The sweet, sensitive type. The ones that women would flock to…as being a friend only. The buddy. The teddy bear.
God, I hated that.
I’d see the same women who saw me “just as a friend” chase after the bad boy/player types, knowing full well that so-and -so was shallow. But he was cool too. So, of course, against common sense, they’d date/sleep with so-and-so. They’d hope the they could ‘change’ the guy into being nice in some way.
These type of guys would rule the day and that’s just the way it was. I’d look at amazement how many women would put aside common sense and give Mr. Player a chance. Al the while, I’d be a “sweetie”.
It wasn’t as if the guy would be a complete jerk and it wasn’t as if the woman would be the type that wanted to be abused. But these type of guys would be in demand and they’d cheat and/or show affection only when it suited their needs.
To the women, niceness (honestly, consideration, etc.) by itself was seen almost as a weakness. But still a good quality. Hence, again, I was their buddy. A teddy bear.
But I didn’t get laid. Or have much romance. In my twenties that is. Just a bunch of women friends telling me how much guys can be assholes. And as for me, don’t change. Women will appreciate you some day. (But of course not them. ” We’re only friends.I like the bad boy types. But that’s only me.”)
I missed out on a lot. And that pisses me off a bit. My “goodness” did me no good. The player types – ones you could spot from a mile away – didn’t succeed in spite of their playerness, they succeeded because of it. The lesson I leanred: being honest and good doesn’t always serve your best interests. You may do some good, but it could easily be overlooked.
I do look back in pride in that I never broke anyone’s heart or made anyone cry. (Of course, I wasn’t given a chance to.) But if I had to do it over again, I’d do it differently. If niceness and goodness and honesty gets you put in the “friend” category, then maybe it makes sense to adopt a bit of the bad boy mentality. Be willing to be player-like. Hell, no one was forcing women to go after those types…that’s what they chose themselves. Just do it carefully and make sure no one gets hurt.
So to me, if it means seeding forums and contemplating creating a flog that hurts no one…and it pays the bills…then so be it.
We can sit back and create idealistic rules and live up to them and then other agencies will come in and flog and seed and seed and flog. They’d get results. That’s important in business.
If it means bending your own rules to succeed a bit, then you do it. Because being right and good sometimes doesn’t make it. That’s life and that’s business.
a piece of advice to the “not gonna say” person.
flirting never hurt anyone…. and you can feel badly that you weren’t an A$$ to some girls when in college or 20’s.. but that said, you can also say that you didn’t sleep with countless women and wonder now if you have an STD or something else.
Here’s a game you can play– whether it’s you or someone who is reading this and wondering if they should be a bad boy ?
1) flirt…. learn to flirt dammit…. you can flirt and intimate that you have an element of bad boy in you… without going for that touchdown. that means smile at any and all women around you.
meet a girl for a drink… or 2 and then say good night. She won’t get it.
if you have an event or a party that you can invite her to .. ask her….. and then don’t spend all night with her. You are there to socialize. tell her you need to network. Let her learn as much about you as you know about her
2) Nice guys are few and far between and what you have to realize is that not everyone is at the same playing level. Some just want to “play”.. and if you realize that’s what they want– then “play”.
if you are serious about want to find a girlfriend, then make that your reality.. because she will show up if you give her half a chance.
Once I decided that I wanted to be in a serious relationship– it happened in nothing flat. –within 60 days (and a new job) I was in a relationship that was serious with a guy who was a bad boy but had decided he didn’t want to be dumped on any more– because he met his fair share of bad girls.
Capish the trail I am laying down?
You can bend the rules a bit– but pretty soon those rules aren’t just bent, they are irretrieveably changed…
whether in business or your personal relationships.
Don’t become the human pretzel.. retain the essence of who YOU are because that’s got to be there . Not that you can’t evolve…. (you have to do that).. but realize the person and values you have in business and personal relationships and go from there.
Now Stevie you say:
“2) Nice guys are few and far between”
That’s not true. But, no offense, it is a common assertion by women.
Nice guys – at least in that age range are overlooked. Just as say, overweight girls are.
It’s not fair, but it’s true.
Bend the rules? By that I mean tone in the niceness. Because (and please explain this to me) many women think niceness – at least in that age range – is a weakness. Don’t be a jerk. Don’t go for one thing. Just realize that what you think is ideal (and what you think they’d appreciate) is not what they may want.
So you adjust. Maintain your honor of not mistreating anyone, but do so in a way that you’re not taken for granted. That’s life and that’s bidness.
Ok. let me rephrase it..
Nice guys did not approach me and offer to take me to coffee (because they were intimidated or already involved with someone — as one told me later)
Asking a woman to coffee or going to lunch is a low key approach to getting to know someone as a human being. If someone’s not going to approach me because they know I happened to have dated a few bad boys or because I was not available (either in a relationship OR because I was choosing not to date) isn’t fair to me or to the guy.
I know some overweight girls who are as dynamic and interesting and thought of as hot by some guys. It depends on location and mindset.
Bend the rules, but not negate the aspect of flirting…. it really can get someone’s attention and also humor…. being nice enough (and really this is NICE) .. to notice when someone looks really nice or has a new dress/shoes — that might be pushing the envelope a bit but honestly….. there’s nothing wrong with flirting with someone– it creates a dynamic energy and that’s what gets anyone’s attention.
I know the difference between walking into a room knowing I am going to be invisible (and I am) and walking in the room and thinking I am going to be the most beautiful woman in the room… it’s a mind set.
if you frame your reference as a perspective and realize that you know what you want, you will attract like minded people– not always but a lot of the time.
I remember I went to see a supervisor at her office (off site) and one of her colleagues walked by and I smiled.. I smiled at everyone ( I always smile at people.)– I had been in the office but twice and I wanted to make a good impression.
The guy thought I was interested in him and asked me to dinner.. where we talked about how he wanted to get married and settle down… (on the first date).
TMI!!!
I didnt’ need to know that. I needed to know him.
I wasn”t ready to get married and I wasn’t ready for a relationship because I was working and in post grad program. (TMW — too much work) .
He was disappointed that I went out with him because I wasn’t on the same page he was — and I asked him why– because he thought because I smiled at him I was interested in him.
I liked him as a person– I didn’t know him well enough to contemplate marriage– at least not on the first date and I wouldn’t have for at least a dozen dates. He wasn’t interested in knowing me, just getting his agenda out there.
Each person is different– your perspective is yours and mine is mine. Not to say that I didn’t turn down some nice guys that I could kick myself over now. However I was too young and naive to realize that there was no changing anyone. The only person I could change was me.
Once I changed my perspective, things in my life turned around– an even better job, a great guy and a better place to live.
Don’t confuse “nice” with spineless, afraid, or weak. Besides, anyone who intentionally acts nice in order to curry favor is actually not nice at all but is scheming, bitter, and vindictive. That may have been because of insecurity, fear, hurt, or painful shyness or fear of rejection, but if, what you’re asking for is to be friends, then you’re going to get friendship. If, what you’re looking for is honest connection and intimacy and a romance, you need to ask for that. Finally, if you ask for a platonic friendship that’s what you get, even if your true agenda is to, ahem, “get laid.” Talk about a lack of transparency!
Real, honest, straight-forward, confidence, real security, and real gentle niceness is always rewarded.
that’s so true Chris. I have found that there were NICE people in business who were (and have) used me. I have found some aloof people– who once they thawed out and got to know me– were really nice and great people. I gather my *nice * people around me… they are my friends. The nice people will make time for you if you need it. They are confident in who they are.
Right now, I know the difference between treated nicely because someone wants something and just because that’s who the person is. I don’t dislike the former but I do like the latter.
I give people all the time in the world to be who they are . Nice is just one of those wonderful characteristics that I now appreciate so much .
Now, back to the topic-at-hand — and it was an important sideline, too. I think this is why flogging and shilling can be so awful — so many people are asking, “dude, what do you want? Are you being nice or are you fattening me up for something?”
ain’t that the truth. You have to watch your back on this one.
Oh please.
I was simply pointing out that staying true to certain types of idealism can lead to unintended consequences.
For the record, I’ve had many women tell me that when they were younger they went for the bad boys. As they got a bit older, and sick of that, they changed their outlook.
And if Chris’ old firm did no stealth or black arts marketing, it wouldn’t have grown into a powerhouse.
You don’t have to change your nature, you need to learn how to apply it more effectively.
May I interject?
I think what not gonna say is saying is that the living up to certain ideals may not result in desired results. If flogging becomes inevitable, it means it’s effective. So it will happen. Those who provide certain social media marketing services have to take this into consideration. Otherwise they won’t get hired. The other firm will.
As for dating, yes, at certain ages people often put too much emphasis on the wrong things and deal with negative consequences. Evaluate and adjust to the reality. But be true to yourself.
Exactly.
Women use code so as to not make us guys feel like shit. “many women tell me that when they were younger they went for the bad boys” is code for “when I was young I took some risks, went out with passionate, interesting, men, had a great time, sucked the marrow out of life, had a lot of fun, had an extreme of feelings and emotions, learned many things; in other words, went out with guys that had their own thing going on and that was appealing! They didn’t stick to me like a wet cotton T– I went out with men hotter than I was; when I got older, I decided it best to marry a man who isn’t as hot as I am… and I will continue to look back to those delicious days with the passionate and sexy men I had in my youth. So, when I say, ‘I went for the bad boys,’ I meant, really, I went for the boys with whom I could be bad! Men who would not make me feel guilty for all the hot sexy fun shameless things I have done with them — so as to avoid those appalling ‘virgin mary’ moral sink-holes — guys I could experiment with without ever feeling guilt or shame!”
How’s that interpretation, Stevie?
This is getting silly.
I should start a series of flogs about dating. Get everyone riled up. I’d be killing two birds with one stone.
Another thing that I like about the online world is that not gonna say has the freedom to protect his privacy — nobody knows you’re a dog on the Internet.
OMG Chris Abraham…. let’s discuss this on a podcast– and have you say that to me then.
My life is my life and there’s a LOT left to live and get the juiciest best out of it.
so there.
There are some comments I could make here but I think discretion is an underrated virtue.
Life is strange.
A blog about flogging.
A discussion about relationships.
A podcast with no discretion.
Social media is so cool..
People are strange when you’re a stranger
Faces look ugly when you’re alone
Women seem wicked when you’re unwanted
You got me. Nailed me. Jim Morrison here. Back from the dead.
That’s why I am an LA Woman with an LA-Story..
my podcasts have discretion– my discretion.
. it’s all about what the other person says– and I do edit (as Chris well knows)..
It’s a conversation that reflect who the person on the other end is– it’s not about me. It’s about them
relationships– isn’t that what life is about? relationships with other people?
flogging — never going to get away from it..
Flogs disguised as blogs is conceptually the same as spam disguised as an email message from your bank. Instant messaging–same thing.
Up until a year ago, over 14,000 followers presumably thought that Comedy Central’s Stephen Colbert was @stephencolbert https://twitter.com/stephencolbert. (In case you’ve not heard, @stephencolbert was a fake http://tinyurl.com/5hmwl7).
The fake @stephencolbert was fun. But the fake @ExxonMobilCorp http://tinyurl.com/6×6aco was picked up by the mainstream media as valid.
Flogs are just another form of identity theft.