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	<title>Comments on: Graphic Designers Don&#8217;t Belong in a Web2.0 World</title>
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	<link>http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/</link>
	<description>Digital PR and Social Media Marketing by Abraham Harrison LLC</description>
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		<title>By: Hank</title>
		<link>http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/comment-page-1/#comment-2196</link>
		<dc:creator>Hank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 20:59:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/#comment-2196</guid>
		<description>Jeez Abraham Harrison/Chris, you sure are a total dickwad.

The kinds of problems you&#039;re talking about are where Graphic Designers are also forced to do web design since the person/corporation hiring them is too goddamn cheap to hire a Web Designer to put together the back end of the website in a way that makes sense.

Blame the cheap-ass corporate execs who want to hire one person to design all the aspects of their website, not the poor schmuck who suddenly finds themselves forced to try to do two distinctly different jobs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeez Abraham Harrison/Chris, you sure are a total dickwad.</p>
<p>The kinds of problems you&#8217;re talking about are where Graphic Designers are also forced to do web design since the person/corporation hiring them is too goddamn cheap to hire a Web Designer to put together the back end of the website in a way that makes sense.</p>
<p>Blame the cheap-ass corporate execs who want to hire one person to design all the aspects of their website, not the poor schmuck who suddenly finds themselves forced to try to do two distinctly different jobs.</p>
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		<title>By: Abraham Harrison</title>
		<link>http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1085</link>
		<dc:creator>Abraham Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/#comment-1085</guid>
		<description>Well, I link to those pages all the time whenever I mention these sort of things online, that&#039;s for sure -- to AHLLC -- also, it doesn&#039;t matter  -- I do update the corporate site pretty often, but not lately, which is my fault because I am so busy.  So, we&#039;ll see. At the end of the day, having all of this really great content -- we actually give lots of our IP away -- but thanks for commenting -- you&#039;re probably right-o! I will surely take it into valuable counsel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I link to those pages all the time whenever I mention these sort of things online, that&#8217;s for sure &#8212; to AHLLC &#8212; also, it doesn&#8217;t matter  &#8212; I do update the corporate site pretty often, but not lately, which is my fault because I am so busy.  So, we&#8217;ll see. At the end of the day, having all of this really great content &#8212; we actually give lots of our IP away &#8212; but thanks for commenting &#8212; you&#8217;re probably right-o! I will surely take it into valuable counsel.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Jancewicz</title>
		<link>http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1084</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Jancewicz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:47:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/#comment-1084</guid>
		<description>Then you&#039;re missing the 1st and most important rule of SEO: don&#039;t try to screw the system.

That page is going to be recognized as junk for several reasons: You don&#039;t update it regularly, people don&#039;t read it, and you don&#039;t have any outbound links, so you&#039;re not viewed as an authority on the subject.

If you want to be recognized by search engines, cater to a human audience. The smartest minds in all these companies constantly modify their search algorithms to become more and more like a real person. So if you&#039;re not doing that, you&#039;re shooting yourself in the foot.

Why is Wikipedia on the top of every search result?
They cater to humans. They&#039;re modified by humans. The freely link, within and outside their site.
And most of all, it makes sense to their readers, who keep going back.

You want traffic, follow their example.
Get it? Get it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then you&#8217;re missing the 1st and most important rule of SEO: don&#8217;t try to screw the system.</p>
<p>That page is going to be recognized as junk for several reasons: You don&#8217;t update it regularly, people don&#8217;t read it, and you don&#8217;t have any outbound links, so you&#8217;re not viewed as an authority on the subject.</p>
<p>If you want to be recognized by search engines, cater to a human audience. The smartest minds in all these companies constantly modify their search algorithms to become more and more like a real person. So if you&#8217;re not doing that, you&#8217;re shooting yourself in the foot.</p>
<p>Why is Wikipedia on the top of every search result?<br />
They cater to humans. They&#8217;re modified by humans. The freely link, within and outside their site.<br />
And most of all, it makes sense to their readers, who keep going back.</p>
<p>You want traffic, follow their example.<br />
Get it? Get it?</p>
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		<title>By: Abraham Harrison</title>
		<link>http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1083</link>
		<dc:creator>Abraham Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 04:29:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/#comment-1083</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t paste those 8 pages for you, Benjamin, I posted those 8 pages for Google, Ask.com, AOL, and for Yahoo!  Get it?  Get it? My point, exactly!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t paste those 8 pages for you, Benjamin, I posted those 8 pages for Google, Ask.com, AOL, and for Yahoo!  Get it?  Get it? My point, exactly!</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Jancewicz</title>
		<link>http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1082</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Jancewicz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 03:00:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/#comment-1082</guid>
		<description>&quot;After 15-years of surfing the web, you would think that graphic designers would learn to stop trying to bring print design to the web.&quot;

Um... the reason Web 2.0 looks they way it does is BECAUSE of graphic designers who know a thing or two about appropriate use of white space and well-designed graphics.

Those were lessons learned by print designers back in the 50&#039;s.

Now, I&#039;d like to challenge you a bit, because you&#039;ve seen to take your perspective in the extreme opposite.

I visited your site.
And at random, I clicked on this page: http://www.abrahamharrison.com/our-insights/domain-name-registration-strategy

Honestly... 8 pages of text??? (I printed it out)
Who in a post Web 1.0 world will have the time to read that?

Your argument in this article is that Web Graphics needs to be concise in order to be effective.
I agree.

But how about concise web copy?? Getting to the point sooner might be a good idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;After 15-years of surfing the web, you would think that graphic designers would learn to stop trying to bring print design to the web.&#8221;</p>
<p>Um&#8230; the reason Web 2.0 looks they way it does is BECAUSE of graphic designers who know a thing or two about appropriate use of white space and well-designed graphics.</p>
<p>Those were lessons learned by print designers back in the 50&#8242;s.</p>
<p>Now, I&#8217;d like to challenge you a bit, because you&#8217;ve seen to take your perspective in the extreme opposite.</p>
<p>I visited your site.<br />
And at random, I clicked on this page: <a href="http://www.abrahamharrison.com/our-insights/domain-name-registration-strategy" rel="nofollow">http://www.abrahamharrison.com/our-insights/domain-name-registration-strategy</a></p>
<p>Honestly&#8230; 8 pages of text??? (I printed it out)<br />
Who in a post Web 1.0 world will have the time to read that?</p>
<p>Your argument in this article is that Web Graphics needs to be concise in order to be effective.<br />
I agree.</p>
<p>But how about concise web copy?? Getting to the point sooner might be a good idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Abraham Harrison</title>
		<link>http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1080</link>
		<dc:creator>Abraham Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Oct 2007 15:30:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/#comment-1080</guid>
		<description>Well, my terminology is not wrong but your point is correct and appreciated. Too many companies do not hire the sort of web development companies that prioritize SEO, that prioritize architecture, that prioritize usability, or that find creative web sites to be attractive to both robots and people.

I will have to write a &quot;reveal&quot; post basically shaming sites as to how bad their web dev team has taken care of them.

I come from the web dev world, a LAMP coder, both PHP and Python, so I know how in many ways, too many Graphic Designers (notice I didn&#039;t just lump it into didn&#039;t say designers) don&#039;t play well with templates and geeks and back-ends.  Also, I don&#039;t even want to talk about even the rockstar Flash and Shockwave site developers -- they might be amazing at the Flash-Fu but all they know how to do is make very HEAVY, FAT, BLOBS of interactive SITE-MOVIE -- you can&#039;t index a movie yet on Google.

Anyway, guys, thanks so much for your comments... I was intentionally being provocative.

Chris</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, my terminology is not wrong but your point is correct and appreciated. Too many companies do not hire the sort of web development companies that prioritize SEO, that prioritize architecture, that prioritize usability, or that find creative web sites to be attractive to both robots and people.</p>
<p>I will have to write a &#8220;reveal&#8221; post basically shaming sites as to how bad their web dev team has taken care of them.</p>
<p>I come from the web dev world, a LAMP coder, both PHP and Python, so I know how in many ways, too many Graphic Designers (notice I didn&#8217;t just lump it into didn&#8217;t say designers) don&#8217;t play well with templates and geeks and back-ends.  Also, I don&#8217;t even want to talk about even the rockstar Flash and Shockwave site developers &#8212; they might be amazing at the Flash-Fu but all they know how to do is make very HEAVY, FAT, BLOBS of interactive SITE-MOVIE &#8212; you can&#8217;t index a movie yet on Google.</p>
<p>Anyway, guys, thanks so much for your comments&#8230; I was intentionally being provocative.</p>
<p>Chris</p>
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		<title>By: Pete A</title>
		<link>http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1079</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Oct 2007 15:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/#comment-1079</guid>
		<description>Just read this.

Understand where you&#039;re coming from, but your terminology is wrong hence the comment you received.

Graphic Designers shouldn&#039;t be designing websites - they should be designing graphics for websites.  Web Designers are responsible for the designing of websites.  Sorry to be offensive, but the clue&#039;s in the name.

What you&#039;ve had bad experiences of, is a one-man band designer who comes from the graphics/print industry, who thinks they can make websites.  I know, the predessor in my current job was one of these.  Nothing worked properly and I&#039;m still unpicking the mess almost 6 months on.  Yes its what keeps the likes of you and I employed.

Unfortionatly marketing and visual impact plays a massive part when a company decides they want a website.  They&#039;ve probably had dealings with some designer or other already, so they&#039;re going to be the logical choice.  Managers of companies don&#039;t want to know about SEO, Web2, AJAX or any other technologies, they want to know what it&#039;ll look like, when it&#039;ll be finished, how much it&#039;ll cost and how much money can they make.

Whats needed is a change in the industry thinking.  Websites should be functional, compliant, good looking and all the other things that have been mentioned - but until everybody realises this comes from a web designer we&#039;re forever going to be in the same vicious circle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just read this.</p>
<p>Understand where you&#8217;re coming from, but your terminology is wrong hence the comment you received.</p>
<p>Graphic Designers shouldn&#8217;t be designing websites &#8211; they should be designing graphics for websites.  Web Designers are responsible for the designing of websites.  Sorry to be offensive, but the clue&#8217;s in the name.</p>
<p>What you&#8217;ve had bad experiences of, is a one-man band designer who comes from the graphics/print industry, who thinks they can make websites.  I know, the predessor in my current job was one of these.  Nothing worked properly and I&#8217;m still unpicking the mess almost 6 months on.  Yes its what keeps the likes of you and I employed.</p>
<p>Unfortionatly marketing and visual impact plays a massive part when a company decides they want a website.  They&#8217;ve probably had dealings with some designer or other already, so they&#8217;re going to be the logical choice.  Managers of companies don&#8217;t want to know about SEO, Web2, AJAX or any other technologies, they want to know what it&#8217;ll look like, when it&#8217;ll be finished, how much it&#8217;ll cost and how much money can they make.</p>
<p>Whats needed is a change in the industry thinking.  Websites should be functional, compliant, good looking and all the other things that have been mentioned &#8211; but until everybody realises this comes from a web designer we&#8217;re forever going to be in the same vicious circle.</p>
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		<title>By: Abraham Harrison</title>
		<link>http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1038</link>
		<dc:creator>Abraham Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 23:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/#comment-1038</guid>
		<description>Also, Kristen, I explicitly left the web dev, info arcs, and SEO chumps OUT of the mix.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, Kristen, I explicitly left the web dev, info arcs, and SEO chumps OUT of the mix.</p>
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		<title>By: Abraham Harrison</title>
		<link>http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1037</link>
		<dc:creator>Abraham Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 23:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/#comment-1037</guid>
		<description>Kristen, your premise is wrong. I make big bucks because most companies don&#039;t hire web developers, info architects or the SEO teams, they hire a graphic designer. I can&#039;t tell you how many top-tier sites DON&#039;T have SEO Teams or Info Architect.

Too many, too many, too many companies get sold by someone who may have vision; also, development teams and web shops give clients what they need. I can&#039;t blame the dev teams or the designers or even the graphic designers... last sites are mighty pretty and they have a lot going for them...

But, most of what I do is fix these things, especially when it comes to production companies, film companies, photographers, musicians, and artists!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kristen, your premise is wrong. I make big bucks because most companies don&#8217;t hire web developers, info architects or the SEO teams, they hire a graphic designer. I can&#8217;t tell you how many top-tier sites DON&#8217;T have SEO Teams or Info Architect.</p>
<p>Too many, too many, too many companies get sold by someone who may have vision; also, development teams and web shops give clients what they need. I can&#8217;t blame the dev teams or the designers or even the graphic designers&#8230; last sites are mighty pretty and they have a lot going for them&#8230;</p>
<p>But, most of what I do is fix these things, especially when it comes to production companies, film companies, photographers, musicians, and artists!</p>
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		<title>By: kristen</title>
		<link>http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/comment-page-1/#comment-1036</link>
		<dc:creator>kristen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 21:25:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketingconversation.com/2007/10/02/graphic-designers-dont-belong-in-a-web20-world/#comment-1036</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t agree... and here is why: you have your job descriptions wrong. 

It is first and foremost the web developers, info architects and the SEO team to NOT ALLOW the website to be killed by flash or graphics. They are responsible for alt tagging, and the rest of the problems you cited. The best advice I have ever come across is create the functionality first ( the site in full text), then envision the design elements. Far more sites have poor info arch - that is the biggest issue I run across - than poor graphical design.

Any company worth its salt in development will know how to tactically approach the use of flash and graphical elements on the web. Of course, flash should be used sparingly - never ever ever develop an entire site in flash - this is the web developers issue, not the flash designers issue. 

Any sort of development team should have logistics down before design - while I know that this is not the reality, it is rather harsh to blame the graphic designers for poorly created websites - they are just doing what they are told -fill space with pretty colors. 

Graphic designers are not responsible for such things like thinking about SEO. Nor should they be- they need to focus on not simply good design. And there is such thing as graphical overkill- I do agree with that part. There is so much that can be translated from print design to the web that is incredibly valuable to the web 2.0 sphere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t agree&#8230; and here is why: you have your job descriptions wrong. </p>
<p>It is first and foremost the web developers, info architects and the SEO team to NOT ALLOW the website to be killed by flash or graphics. They are responsible for alt tagging, and the rest of the problems you cited. The best advice I have ever come across is create the functionality first ( the site in full text), then envision the design elements. Far more sites have poor info arch &#8211; that is the biggest issue I run across &#8211; than poor graphical design.</p>
<p>Any company worth its salt in development will know how to tactically approach the use of flash and graphical elements on the web. Of course, flash should be used sparingly &#8211; never ever ever develop an entire site in flash &#8211; this is the web developers issue, not the flash designers issue. </p>
<p>Any sort of development team should have logistics down before design &#8211; while I know that this is not the reality, it is rather harsh to blame the graphic designers for poorly created websites &#8211; they are just doing what they are told -fill space with pretty colors. </p>
<p>Graphic designers are not responsible for such things like thinking about SEO. Nor should they be- they need to focus on not simply good design. And there is such thing as graphical overkill- I do agree with that part. There is so much that can be translated from print design to the web that is incredibly valuable to the web 2.0 sphere.</p>
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